Was the United States of America founded on Christian principles?
Founded on Christianity VS. Being Christian
This is a question, when I was younger, I never thought I would have to tackle. I thought it had a pretty obvious answer. But the more I read, conversed and listened to people the more I realized it wasn’t such an open and shut case for many people. For some, it is actually a question that is a bit confusing. Now, let me explain:
What makes a nation a Christian (or any religious) nation? To answer that question we have to look at what we determine makes a country/nation Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, etc.
- Is it the nation’s dominant religion? One you have to embrace and believe in or risk fines, arrest and persecution?
- Is it the religion of the majority of the country’s population?
- Is it whatever religion that the government decides is the nation’s religion?
- Is it the core beliefs and foundation upon which the country is built?
America has long been known as the country of religious freedom. This is again another confusion for some. If a country was Christian or founded on biblical principles why allow other false religions to linger? Isn’t it then just a country of many religions?
Let me be really clear about something that seems to have gotten blurred over the past several decades: America is a country with freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Throughout the pages of our history, the voices of the founders rang with the need for God and His scriptures in our lives:
“Religion is the only solid basis for good morals, therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God.” – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution
“Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.” – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Man’s laws must rest upon the ultimate authority of God’s law. The establishment of religion was a very serious matter for these men. To live without it was certain destruction, they knew. But how to approach it when founding a nation…
In his Rights of the Colonists as Men, written November 20th, 1772, Samuel Adams said:
“As neither reason requires nor religion permits the contrary, every man living in or out of a state of civil society has a right peaceably and quietly to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience.”
These men knew the truth. They knew the true religion and the true God. But they were not God. They believed that it was not their position, or the position of government, to decide a person’s religion or how they should practice it. They had just experienced this with the church of England and her king. Neither should there be persecution for worshipping God as one’s conscience tells them to.
Of course they did not want everyone doing whatever they thought was right, causing chaos, destruction and rampant sin, which is why they laid the foundation of our country, government and education the way they did, as we will see in a moment. These men, I truly believe were missionaries of the truth. In their personal lives as well as their political and everyday work lives. By laying the groundwork for our nation, speaking and praying in the halls of congress, teaching scripture to their children and those around them… and let’s not forget the many men who were preachers or teachers at schools and universities…they proclaimed the TRUE GOD.
But, as it is said in scripture, the choice is an individual one. Believing in and following God is a choice each person has to make for themselves. It is not one that the church, government or family can make for them. Our founding fathers believed that this country should allow people the right to do just that. And if they searched through scripture, and their conscience pricked them in a way contrary to how others believed on the matter, they thought they should be free to follow the dictates of their own God-given conscience and should not be arrested or persecuted for doing so. Something so unique… so unheard of… and so precious.
Are we a Christian nation? If you define a religious nation as the nation’s dominant religion or whatever religion that the government decides it is, then no. As we just learned, we are NOT a Christian nation under those definitions.
Are you defining it as the religion of the majority of the country’s population? This is where it gets tricky. And you have to start defining even more because even the word “Christian” has been twisted to have more than one meaning by many people. While the majority of Americans have been classified as “Christian”, that is still a pretty broad statement. So if you are just looking at statistics and trusting the numbers, then we could say yes, we would be classified as a Christian nation this way. But populations change, they grow, people turn from what they once believed or would call themselves. As time goes on and darkness creeps in and blurs the lines even more to confuse and redefine…using this method becomes increasingly harder.
But what about if you are defining it as the core beliefs and foundation upon which the country is built? WAS America and its government founded on biblical principles?
A Founder’s View
Who better to tell us about the founding of our nation than the men who founded it?
When looking for the truth, we ALWAYS want to go to the source. As Christians, we know that we must always go back to God’s word for the ultimate truth on right and wrong, the One who decreed it. While it’s okay to listen to others who have studied something more than we have or to hear a different perspective that we perhaps didn’t think about before…it should not take the place of us searching God’s word ourselves for truth. And if something goes against what God has said, it is not truth, no matter how much we like the thought, the person who said it, how eloquently it was said, etc.
The same is true here and should be applied in the same way. Just as we know we must go to God and the scriptures (the source of truth) for right and wrong, when wanting to know the truth of our country’s foundation, we need to go to those who were there and laid that foundation. Not relying on other people’s interpretations or opinions.
Throughout all their writings and speeches these men referenced God and scripture many times. They constantly went back to God’s word and prayer for wisdom in how to fight the war and build a country. They understood that no government or nation could rise or prosper without God.
“May this Almighty Being (God) graciously preside in all our councils! May He direct us to such measures as He Himself shall approve and be pleased to bless! May we ever be a people favored of God! May our land be a land of liberty, the seat of virtue, the asylum of the oppressed, a name and a praise in the whole earth, until the last shock of time shall bury the empires of the world in one common undistinguished ruin!” – Joseph Warren, Constitutional Liberty and Arbitrary Power
They also knew, and acted on this belief, that only by the hand of God could they prevail in the war and continue to thrive.
“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments of God.” – James Madison
“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.” – George Washington
“Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religion principles.” – George Washington, Farewell Address
“We have this day restored the Sovereign, to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and with a propitious eye beholds His subjects assuming that freedom of thought and dignity of self-direction which He bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun may His kingdom come.” – Samuel Adams, American Independence
On June 28th 1813, John Adams wrote a letter to Thomas Jefferson, discussing the fact that America achieved independence through the general principles of Christianity:
“The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty…” – John Adams
These men believed calling yourself an American and a Patriot go hand in hand with God and His word. You cannot have national morality if you throw out God and His word, which DEFINES morality. How could that be if they did not build America on scripture?
God’s name and His word has been etched into the very core of America:
- “In GOD we trust.”
- “One nation under GOD.”
- “GOD bless America!”
During the early years of our country’s growth, the Bible was a main textbook in schools, prayer was a big deal in running the government and congress, the Ten Commandments were hung in the hallways and taught in the class rooms, and until 1962 prayer was observed in public schools.
In 1782 Benjamin Franklin described America by saying:
“Atheism is unknown there.” (Information to Those Who Would Remove to America)
Conclusion
Do you agree that America is blessed? We have a country so unlike any other, past or present, and have reaped many great benefits and gifts and freedoms that have never been experienced before. There have been many nations throughout history that have prospered for a time. We can look at the nations of Rome, Babylon, Egypt and many others as examples. They all thrived for a time…God had a purpose for them, and they faded. But prospering is NOT the same as being blessed.
God may allow a nation that doesn’t serve Him to prosper for a time for His purposes and glory…but He does not BLESS a nation that defies or disobeys Him.
“Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord…” (Psalm 33:12)
“Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.” (Proverbs 14:34)
“I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men, And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writing, that ‘except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel…I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business.” – Benjamin Franklin, 1787 speech at the Constitutional Convention
Was America a Christian nation? Based on all this evidence and these hard facts, and from the words straight out of the mouths of our founders… America was founded on the principles that we see in the Bible and they were meant to be the core of society and the building blocks of this government.
Are we a Christian nation? Ah…now there is a question well worth pondering!
“A nation that does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do.” – Woodrow Wilson
We have forgotten where we came from, who we are, and what we are doing as a nation. We have come away from our roots and, Christians, we have watched in silence as our nation fell off its foundation. The enemy has done a pretty good job, don’t you think? We are no longer one nation under God.
Are we a Christian nation? I think the answer is up to us, Christians. What is our response to what we see in our country today? Do you remember who we are? Our roots? What do you want America to be known as? What do YOU want to be known as?
Preserving Foundations 
Good evening. I couldn’t help but notice a couple of things about your article. The first is, I congratulate you on first trying to define what a “Christian nation” really means, and then looking at what it actually is. The US population is definitely majority Christian and has always been. But as you note, that religion is not required.
My second observation, however, is not of agreement. Your information seems to have a strong slant in a manner I would call cherry picking. Yes, some founding fathers were Christian, and even expressed such views. But many were deist, or even atheist. Thomas Jefferson clearly held Christianity in contempt, yet still believed in some higher power. This means mere reference to a god in these early documents is not necessarily a reference to the Christian god.
Additionally, the 10 commandments do not inform our laws or government. The 3 commandments that have some resemblance to our laws predate the writing of the Bible, and the other 7 are not only not illegal, in many cases are blatantly legal and enshrined in the constitution. And yes, I’m going with one of the currently accepted 10, not the real 10, nor the other 603 commandments that are also not laws. But that’s another conversation.
LikeLike
Thank you for your comment and observations. I would be very interested in knowing what he has said, or where you get the idea that Thomas Jefferson held Christianity in contempt, and which founders you believe to be deists or atheist…and why you think they are not talking about the Christian God, the only God, when many of them have over and over quoted His words and stated Him directly. Here is another wonderful reference for you, if you wish to know more. This article contains even more of the direct words of the founders and their beliefs. It is well worth the read! https://wallbuilders.com/importance-morality-religion-government/
The 10 Commandments are the 10 Commandments written in the book of Exodus, chapter 20. There are no others. And every one of them were, in fact, used as the foundation for this country AND the laws. I would encourage you to read through them, if you are unsure.
LikeLike
Hi, Espragg. I apologize up front for assuming that you would be aware of this history. In circles outside of Christianity, everyone knows that Thomas Jefferson wasn’t a Christian. He was a deist, and believed in some sort of higher power, but clearly rejected Christianity as the version that explained that higher power. He specifically said this in many letters. For example, in a letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, (February 10, 1814) Jefferson writes “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.” and “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”
Then there is “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
And “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
And “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
And “The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves…these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.”
So yes, Thomas Jefferson held Christianity in contempt. But to be entirely fair, it is also obvious that Jefferson believed in a god, and Jefferson did believe that Jesus lived and was a messenger for that god. But since we also know that he held the church in contempt (which is to say the leadership, hierarchy, and teachings within Christianity, especially the Pauline teachings), we can conclude that he was religious, but clearly not a Christian in the sense it has today. And we know this to be true because, again, Jefferson specifically said so:
“To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.”
Long story short, Jefferson believed in a god, and believed in Jesus, but if you attempt to ascribe any current Christian beliefs on him you would be wrong. He clearly would find today’s Christianity an abomination, most especially in it’s attempts to take over the government.
As for the 10 commandments, I think you should probably go back and read your bible. Exodus 20 gives 613 commandments, not 10. Further, the only place in the bible that specifically mentions “the ten commandments” is in exodus 34, which are a different set of commandments.
But even if we pretend that the first 12 or so commandments given in Exodus 20 and currently stylized into the usual 10 of today, they CLEARLY are not the foundation of our laws in this country. Only two are actually laws. That’s 20%. You’re telling me that our entire system of laws and government and courts were established by using 20% of a list of 10 and rejecting the rest of it? That’s 80% NOT used. This is the opposite of basing laws on the 10 commandments. In fact 3 of the commandments are explicitly rejected in the constitution- the first three! You CAN’T force people to worship just him, you CAN’T force people not to say his name in vain, and you CAN’T force people to keep the sabbath holy. All three of these are illegal to enforce under the constitution. So out of 10, only two translate into laws, one is a procedural law, four are completely ignored in the law, and three are explicitly illegal. No, the 10 commandments don’t inform our laws at all, and it is telling that the founding fathers specifically rejected the notion that the US was founded under such ideas: “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” That sentence is from the Treaty of Tripoli, which was signed by founding father and then President John Adams, and ratified by 100% of the Senate, also full of founding fathers.
So only 2 of the 10 commandments are law, 3 are illegal to make laws, and the founding fathers unanimously told the world that the US was not founded on Christianity.
LikeLike
Though I do not make the claim that I am an expert in every area of history, I have a pretty decent grasp on true history, and I have seen people twist or rewrite history to fit their own narrative. That is why I asked you to cite your sources and reasons, because your claims did not fit with what history, and his OWN writings state about Thomas Jefferson. Now, I will agree that not all his views (or every single view of every single founder) falls perfectly in line with what I believe and what I believe God and scripture teaches…but that is not reason enough to claim that they were atheists, theists or deists. I understand that is how my generation and many others have been taught and that is how they are guided to find information…but that is why I started this site, to encourage people to search out the truth, not just the way they were taught.
I did some digging on those Thomas Jefferson quotes you gave. Most of those are commonly used as an argument for him being against Christianity…however, very few go past those sentences to get the full context of what he was saying or to what he was referring. I read his entire letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper…no where in that letter was he EVER talking about American law. He was talking about the common law of England, identified as the collection of laws which existed prior to the Magna Carta, and the establishment of that law and any relation to religion. He nowhere claimed that Christianity had no part in the law of America. This was a completely different subject.
His quote about questioning the existence of a god was taken from a letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 10th, 1787. If you read the entire letter, he was encouraging his nephew to not just take what was told him, or what others believed, but to ask questions and to seek for the truth. He needed to be secure in his own mind about what he believed, for a man’s faith should be because he knows what he believes and why. But that is what we should be doing anyways: not just taking what we are told or what everyone around us says is true, but searching for ourselves and finding the truth. In the case of religion, “testing the spirits” and the information we are told against the truth of scripture. In history and other subjects, going to the real source (in this case, the letter from Thomas Jefferson), always remembering to look at the whole thing and keeping quotes in context so as not to twist it to our own belief and advantages.
For all of these quotes, I encourage you to go and search out the source (as I did with them all). Find the document or letter they are in and read the entire thing, gaining the context and looking at what he was talking about and the reasons behind his words. If you truly want to see and understand, I think you will find them to be not what they seem here. Like I said, none of this means that I agree with every single thing he, or any of the founders, ever said or did. This has to do with giving credit where credit is due, and not turning any man into something he was not, simply because of a single sentence that he never intended to have anything to do with what we are turning it into. We have to look at the original intent and the context of the times and the document. For several of those quotes…he was talking about England the the Church of England’s practices. Not America, and not Christianity as a whole.
As to the Ten Commandments…I do not need to read my Bible, as I was looking right at the passage when I wrote my response. I am, however, curious which Bible you are referring to. Exodus 20 states TEN commandments:
1: You shall have no other God’s before Me. (Exodus 20:3)
2: You shall not make for yourself a carved image…you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Exodus 20:4-6)
3: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain (Exodus 20:7)
4: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (Exodus 20:8-11)
5: Honor your father and your mother (Exodus 20:12)
6: You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)
7: You shall not commit adultery (Exodus 20:14)
8: You shall not steal (Exodus 20:15)
9: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor (lie) (Exodus 20:16)
10: You shall not covet (Exodus 20:17)
These can also be broken up into two parts: the vertical, man’s relationship to God (verses 2-11), and the horizontal, man’s relationship to others (verses 12-17). The other nine verses in the chapter are not commandments. Verses 18-21 are Moses and the people talking. The people are afraid of God’s presence and wanted Moses to speak to them. “‘You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.’” Verses 22-26 (the end of the chapter) are not commandments, but what is called the law of the alter, this was specifically for the people of Israel. But even if you were to add up all the of these and combine them to be considered commandments, we would still fall far short of the number you stated. To reach 613, would require about 23 commandments PER verse. And that is simply not the case, as I have just pointed out. Please, show me where you get 613 commandments from that, as I cannot find that ANYWHERE in the Bible.
Exodus 34 is not a different set of commandments. In fact, in verse 1 of that chapter God told Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.” After Moses came down from the mountain with the first two tablets (in Exodus 20), he found the children of Israel worshipping a golden calf and in his anger he broke the tablets at the foot of the mountain (Exodus 32:19). The tablets in are not new ones, but the same 10 on replacement tablets.
Now, I never said, nor did any of our founders, that all 10 Commandments are put into law. I said that they were the FOUNDATION for creating our law, government and society (or at least they should be, and that was their intention).
“Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.” James McHenry, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920
“The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.” John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings
“To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.” Jedediah Morse, A Sermon, Exhibiting the Present Dangers and Consequent Duties of the Citizens of the United States of America
“The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.” Noah Webster, History of the United States, “Advice to the Young”
The Ten Commandments show us what is wrong. God gave us these commandments so that we would be without excuse. We could no longer say, “I didn’t know that was wrong,” because He told us. It was also to show us that we could not follow these perfectly on our own…so He sent is Son to make a way for us. These are to be the foundation of creating laws, since it lines our what is right and wrong.
While laws were not to be made, forcing people to believe a certain way…they had left England for that very purpose… American’s were not to be killed or persecuted for believing differently, Samuel Adams stated that that was between them and God (for each of us must give an account to God, Romans 14:12)…but that does not mean that these men did not believe these things, or that they did not build our nation on the principles found in scripture, and on the 10 Commandments. That was cleared up in the quotes above, and in this article. I would be happy to share more of these with you, should you want them.
As to which ones are integrated into our laws…
Commandments 1-4: Man’s relationship to God. This was not the duty of government to determine how or create a punishment when not done correctly. That was God’s job, and it was between each man and God how that was to be done. In both “American Independence” and “The Rights of Colonists as Men”, Samuel Adams makes several points on this. However, these four were not thrown out…knowing of man’s relationship with God, and being well versed in the Bible, these men used this as the framework for building society and creating government. That is why, up until recently, the 10 Commandments were hung in the halls of schools, and in Congress and in all the government buildings. They prayed every time they convened together, and they taught these precepts to their children and their students (those of them who were professors and teachers).
Commandment 5 could also be looked at that way, and also as: when there is no respect for parents and their authority, you have a generation of children that grow up to have no respect for any authority or laws…and thus break all the laws they please and do whatever they want.
Commandment 6: Murder is obviously illegal.
Commandment 7: Adultery…may not be fully illegal according to specific law…but what comes out of that? Some cases are illegal or contain illegal actions (murder, sexual assault, etc.). If something is not illegal in the eyes of the law, or in the eyes of a God they claim not to believe in, why do people try so hard to cover it up?
Commandment 8: Stealing is obviously illegal.
Commandment 9: You may not find a law that says specifically “do not ever lie”…but it is illegal to lie (bear false testimony) under oath in court. It is illegal to lie to the IRS. Just a couple examples.
Commandment 10: Again, you may not find a specific law…but coveting…that can lead to the previous four actions (murder, adultery, stealing, lying).
Finally, your last statement claimed that the founding fathers unanimously told the world that America was not founded on Christianity…yet you have given me nothing to back that up. I gave you many quotes from the founders (and I have many more if you want them), examples in their lives and the formation of our country and government that states the complete opposite, so I shall not attempt to rehash that. You are more than welcome to go back and read this article, look at the links I sent for more information on these men and their beliefs, and do some of your own digging. But don’t believe everything you hear or read. In the words of Thomas Jefferson, from a little further down in the same letter as the quote you gave me, “In fine, I repeat that you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, & neither believe nor reject anything because any other persons, or description of persons have rejected or believed it.”
Should you truly desire to learn more, I will be more than happy to continue with you.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Your comment covers so much…. I’ll try to be brief in my response. Working backward from bottom to top:
Yes, I specifically stated that in the Treaty of Tripoli, which was unanimously passed in the senate (100% of the senators voting “yes”) and signed by John Adams himself as President, states that “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”. That is about as clear as you can get.
The 10 commandments: I would be very interested to understand how you are looking at this. You have literally gone through the list and verified that only two are laws, one is illegal in certain procedural matters, and the rest are not law at all whatsoever, and in fact contradictory to the 1st Amendment. This seems quite obvious to me that 2 out of 10 right, and at least 4 out of 10 completely wrong means our laws were not derived from the list. The only thing I can see is that maybe you believe that the 10 commandments, while all of it’s commandments except 2 are ignored, just the idea of having a structure of laws was started by the 10 commandments? Is that what you mean? While that is true, the 10 commandments are certainly not the only nor the first framework of laws developed for civilizations. If this indeed is your logic, then why say our laws are based on Christianity? Why not on the Code of Hammurabi? I eagerly await your response.
One other thought, because you brought it up, you mentioned that God gave us the 10 commandments because before that we wouldn’t know right from wrong. I will say to you that this is clearly not correct as a society of a couple million people would not have survived long enough to get the commandments if everyone thought murder was okay. They clearly and obviously, as even told in the bible stories themselves, had a sense of morality before the mountaintop scene.
You say all sorts of things that are factually wrong about the 10 commandments in schools, “in god we trust” on our money and all that. These things were introduced in the 1950s. They are not legacy items from our founding.
You give me a lot of quotes, some of earlier and some of later writers, that say god helped the US or they believed in god and all that jazz. I’d like to clear up something quickly, I never, ever said that none of the founding fathers weren’t religious. I also never said any of them were atheist. I said there were some that may be considered deist (including Jefferson). But most importantly, I said that the US was not founded on Christian values. It was founded on secular reasoning. And the proof of this is not only the Treaty of Tripoli, but the entire Federalist Papers, of which god is not mentioned. Our country was founded on reason, even if some of the founding fathers had a personal faith. They did not use that personal faith to craft the Constitution, they used reason and logic. Adding lots of quotes about the founding fathers and their personal faith does not, in any way, undermine my premise. I granted in my very first comment that yes, many of the founders were religious. But that is not the point we are trying to establish. I am interested in you providing evidence that Christianity directly was co-opted into our Constitution, or you have no argument.
Jefferson clearly held the church in contempt, no matter what his personal faith was, and your analysis has not changed that. That he held the church in contempt is one of the reasons we know that the US Constitution was NOT founded on Christianity, as he wanted the church as far away from the government as possible. Even if he personally went to church or had faith, this does not change that he held the church in contempt and specifically kept the church out of the Constitution. In fact, that is specifically why the Constitution says there can be no religious test for office, so that the religion did NOT influence the government.
Yes, you should probably go back to your bible. This verse “And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.” appears in Exodus 34 and nowhere else. It is preceded by “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So we know that the words Moses was writing were the 10 commandments given to him immediately preceding, which are different than the traditional 10. And your 10 are different from the 7 other versions of the 10 because, as you can read in Exodus 20, they are not neatly divided into 10. It’s more like 12 or 13. And the reason there is so much confusion is because those 10 commandments are NOT the 10 commandments that the bible SAYS are the 10 commandments. Those are in Exodus 34. I’ve written a couple of articles about the “10 commandments” on my blog, feel free to check those out. And yes, Jewish tradition holds that there are 613 commandments, just like Christian tradition holds that 12 or 13 commandments are 10. I’m not the one that divided them up, I’m just telling you what you are unaware of. They are here. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-613-mitzvot-commandments
That’s long enough for now. I look forward to hearing your response.
LikeLike
I don’t think I can state it any clearer than I just did, where I (quite literally) spelled it out.
Please go back and read the Treaty of Tripoli and the history behind it. That statement was stopped in the middle of the sentence and taken out of the context in which it was written.
Thus far, I have given facts, direct quotes, sources, and scripture to back up all of my statements…and have researched the claims you have made. You have told me I was wrong, but so far have not given me reasons or told me specifically where I was wrong and you were right.
We are talking about the TEN Commandments in Exodus chapter TWENTY. Not 12, not 13, not 7…and not 613. TEN. We are not talking about all the commandments found in all the books of the law (which is what was being covered in the link you sent me. They have nothing to do with this).
You made a claim: You said that the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20 were not the real 10 Commandments and that Exodus 20 contains more, yet you have yet to show me where they are. I wrote out the chapter for you and quoted God’s words exactly in Exodus 34 to prove that there are not two different sets of commandments. Back up your claim.
We are not talking about tradition. Not Christian tradition, not Jewish tradition (those are all man-made and, again, have nothing to do with what we are talking about)…we are talking about scripture. I backed up my claims with scripture and you say I am wrong…prove me wrong. You say there are more than 10 Commandments in Exodus 20…show me. List them, and give me chapter and verse references, because I have been over and over this and I cannot find any more than 10. You say the commandment in chapter 20 are different than in chapter 34 and chapter 20 aren’t the real ones…show me. Give me chapter and verse references for proof that I am wrong.
You say I am factually wrong in what I say, but don’t give me any facts to disprove me. If you make a claim, please back it up with facts and references.
If you can’t do that, then we don’t have anymore to talk about because we will be going in circles.
LikeLike
Espragg, I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m giving you the references. The Treaty of Tripoli reference was not the entire treaty, but the main line. Yes, you can read the entire line and paragraph and the entire treaty, but the fact remains that the founding fathers wrote a treaty that said the US was not founded on the Christian religion.
You did a very fine job of finding religious founding fathers, and as you would expect many of these founding fathers seemed to feel that a general Christianity “thing” helped create the country. You showed that quite well and I commend you on your research. But you have not demonstrated that the US was founded on Christianity, and I have in fact demonstrated in numerous ways that you are wrong. For example, 1) Christianity and the US Constitution being almost completely at odds with each other, especially in reference to the 10 commandments. 2) The entire works of the federalist papers, which lays out logical and secular reasons why the constitution was formed as it is, and 3) That many founding fathers weren’t actually very Christian. Of these three, the third is almost a footnote. But the first two are absolute nails in the coffin. A US constitution based on Christianity would have laws and rules in line with Christianity, while in reality the only similarities are the things that are almost universally understood since way before Christianity or Judaism were ever formed, like theft and murder.
A US Constitution based on Christianity would have something to say about the Christian god, and give him a high place in the government. Priests would be consulted on matters of state, and probably be government employees. Churches would be government institutions. Blasphemy would be illegal, as would worshiping other deities. The Continental Congress would have debated crafting the document to line up with the bible. Jay, Madison, and Hamilton would have referenced the bible in formulating the functions of the government. Etc. That is what we would expect if the US was founded on Christian principles. None of that is true. Literally nothing of Christianity has become part of the US Constitution. I don’t know how else to explain this….
LikeLike
I’m not claiming you are being difficult, but I am noticing a pattern. Again, it looks like we are going to keep going in circles. I’m not going to keep doing that. If you really would like to know more about this that is one thing, but if you are just going to keep telling me I am wrong and not showing me HOW, especially when I ask for specifics, then I am not going to keep wasting my words over and over.
I am going to leave this with a few thoughts though. You are welcome to reply or leave it alone, it is up to you:
First, I may have given you the wrong idea when I stated “references”. “Sources” and “proof” may have been better words to use. When you write a paper for school, you must give your sources to back up your claim or you fail. Plain and simple. That is what I was trying to get you to do here, just as I did to support my beliefs. I’m sorry for that confusion. However, just referencing a document (such as the Treaty of Tripoli) is not the same as proving a fact.
You made reference to the Treaty of Tripoli, but you didn’t take in to account the history surrounding it, or the purpose for the treaty. I disagree, that is not the main line of the treaty. That is just the main line of your point, but you have taken it out of context (as many others have) and are not using it in the way it was intended. The “proof” of an out-of-context line in one treaty does not offer sufficient support of such a broad assertion. The principles of Scripture, and the importance held of them by multiple founding fathers has been stated and you have not been able to refute that. However, I will agree with that last part: “not founded on the Christian religion”. I never made this claim. My claim was that we were founded on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES and the Scripture. Hence the title of this article. I also stated in the article: “…even the word “Christian” has been twisted to have more than one meaning by many people. While the majority of Americans have been classified as “Christian”, that is still a pretty broad statement.”
Within the “Christian religion” there are many denominations and churches: Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. All of these claim to be Christian and to follow the Bible. Yet each one holds different beliefs about certain things, and some truly do not follow scripture beyond what they want it to say. The point is: just because someone claims Christianity doesn’t mean they follow the real Jesus Christ of the Bible and His words in Scripture.
THAT was the point of the Treaty of Tripoli. It was a treaty between America and Muslim countries. Throughout the history of Christianity (which I am not going to get into here), the definition has gotten muddled. The term “Christian” became whatever someone wanted it to be…regardless of what the entirety of scripture said. Remember the Crusades? In the name of “Christianity”, Muslims were attacked just for being Muslim. Queen Isabella of Spain, to further her idea of “Christianity”, attacked Muslims and others…forcing them to believe as she did. That does not mean that these were the true Christianity of the Bible. These are just a couple examples of why the Muslims held a grudge against anyone who called themselves “Christian”. Before the war, the British Navy protected American merchant ships, during the war, we had the help of the French. After the war, we did not have our own navy established yet, so our ships were open to attack. The Muslims would then attack American merchant ships and captured their Christian seamen, holding them for ransom or selling them. The Treaty of Tripoli was to resolve this. That line that you quoted from the last sentence…was to assure them that Americans were NOT like the “Christian Nations” that attacked them and attempted to force their beliefs onto them. When reading the sentence in its entirety, we see that they were assuring the Muslims that Americans were not like the Christian nations that held hostility toward them for their differences in beliefs. You can read more of that history and the treaty here… https://wallbuilders.com/treaty-of-tripoli/
As to your statement: “A US Constitution based on Christianity would have something to say about the Christian god, and give him a high place in the government. “ I refer you to the Constitution of the United States, Article VII, final paragraph, in which it is stated: “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven” And to Benjamin Franklin’s words to a part of THE GOVERNMENT: “I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that GOD governs in the affairs of men, And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writing, that ‘except the LORD build the House, they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without HIS concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel…I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth PRAYERS imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business.” – Benjamin Franklin, 1787 speech at the Constitutional Convention
I also refer you back to the MANY quotes I have given from several of the founders where they made large claims that GOD and the Ten Commandments were indeed a part of our government and essential to the thriving of a nation and society.
You stated that God and the Ten Commandments in schools and government did not come about until the 1950s, yet prayer was taken out of schools in the 1960s. Why would they introduce it in the 50s just to take it out 10 years later? “In God We Trust” may not have been placed on our currency until later, but why is that phrase even on there if it is not a part of our history? Why say that if our government and founding had no part in God?
I will also point out that the Bible was a SCHOOL book during Colonial times and on into the 1800s, and children were required to know the 10 Commandments. You can look this up in early educational books and the McGuffey Readers. In 1980, Stone v. graham, the Supreme Court stated: “If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments are to have any effect at all, it will be to induce the schoolchildren to read, meditate upon, perhaps to venerate and obey the Ten Commandments.” The Ten Commandments were taken out of schools because the Court said that children would OBEY them!
You said that I have not demonstrated that America was founded on Christianity. And you would be correct IF 1) that was what I was trying to do, and 2) if we were talking about the “Christian Religion”, which I have already said has so many man made definitions. No, I have not demonstrated that America was founded on Christianity…I have demonstrated that America was founded on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES and the GOD of the BIBLE. And GOD was to be the LORD of this country:
“We have this day restored the Sovereign, to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven and with a propitious eye beholds His subjects assuming that freedom of thought and dignity of self direction which He bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun may His kingdom come.” -Sam Adams, American Independence, August 1776
“But where, say some, is the king of America? I’ll tell you, friend, He reigns above…” Thomas Paine, Common Sense
America is a nation of freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. As Sam Adams stated above, God is the Sovereign and man should be obedient to HIM and He gave men freedom of thought to choose Him or to not choose Him. But just because we are not to be forced to believe one way or to worship exactly the same, does NOT negate the fact that our country was founded on the principles of the Bible.
“1) Christianity and the US Constitution being almost completely at odds with each other, especially in reference to the 10 commandments.”
Where are they? LIST THEM. Give me specific examples. HOW AND WHERE does the Constitution disagree with the 10 commandments? You cannot answer a statement without proof or example.
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a MORAL and RELIGIOUS people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” -John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States
“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments of God.” -James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia
“Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits. . . it is FOUNDED on MORALS and RELIGION, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.” – Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington
“Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the HOLY SCRIPTURES. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our COURTS OF JUSTICS and constitutions of GOVERNMENT, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the BIBLE, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.” -James McHenry
“While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.” -George Washington, from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789
You said, “A US Constitution based on Christianity would have something to say about the Christian god, and give him a high place in the government. Priests would be consulted on matters of state, and probably be government employees. Churches would be government institutions. Blasphemy would be illegal, as would worshiping other deities. The Continental Congress would have debated crafting the document to line up with the bible.”
Again, this would be something if we were talking about the “Christian Religion” as it appears in history and has been lived out in other countries. However, we saw the persecution that came from that, and the twisting of scripture that those who claimed to follow it did. That is not the true nature of the Bible, and that is not what the founders wanted to happen here. They wanted this country to be different. No forcing people to believe a certain way, even if it is the correct way. God, Himself, does not force people to come to Him. Yet that does not throw out the argument or the fact that God was placed all over this country and her government. I showed you several places where our laws and documents lined up with the Bible and gave you many references to the founders who said the same thing. Schools had the Bible integrated into them, prayers were given at graduations and in the halls of Congress. And even today they still pray…though those prayers have been grossly twisted. Chaplains have been in our military from the very beginning. Pastors have been called to the White House and other government buildings to talk with and pray for/with the President, and there have been many pastors and evangelists in the White House counsels through the years. Many “government employees” during the start of our nation were PASTORS. Actually, 29 out of the 56 signers of the Declaration held seminary degrees. In the 1700’s, it would have been SUPER hard for “atheists” to get a seminary degree.
These men believed that a person’s faith should be lived out in EVERY part of their lives, not just restricted to the walls of a church. William Samuel Johnson, a signer of the Constitution, said this at a public school graduation: “You have received a public education, the purpose whereof hath been to qualify you the better to serve your CREATOR and your country… Your first great duties, you are sensible, are those you owe to Heaven, to your Creator and Redeemer, Let these be ever present to your minds, and exemplified in your lives and your conduct.”
Justice James Wilson, wrote a 1792 Commentary on the Constitution of the United States. He told his law students “It should always be remembered that this law, . . . made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source: it is the law of God. . . . What we do, indeed, must be founded on what He has done; and the deficiencies of our laws must be supplied by the perfections of His. Human law must rest its authority, ultimately, upon the authority of that law which is Divine.”
As to your statement that churches would be government institutions: That is EXACTLY why they came here! Remember the Church of England? That is NOT what we wanted! The government has no right to tell a church what to teach and how to act. And that is what would happen if they were a government institution. For it does not matter how carefully you plan or protect or create laws to protect the church… evil men will arise into government, men who do not know or obey God, and care little for His word and the Church…and we would be right back where we started. This has nothing to do with a nation being Christian. For that is what England claimed (they claimed Christianity)… yet they hunted down and persecuted all who disagreed with the established religion and thoughts.
By the time we got to the 1700’s, the term “Christian” or “Christianity” has such a broad definition. We came so far away from the Christ of the Bible and the teachings that His disciples spread. When people heard of “Christianity”, they were thinking of the religion that had been twisted by man. So for all intents and purposes, the founders did not want to be associated with that Christianity. But they never backed down from being associated with the Bible, and the God and principles found therein. And they spread it through every part of their lives (though not perfectly, and not all in the exact same beliefs) and in the very framework of the building of this nation.
You may choose to fight me on this. You are welcome to disagree, but that does not make you right. I have laid out more than enough proof to support my claim and to back up my statements. I have laid it out as simply as possible. If you think I am wrong, I ask you to prove it. I have given you two areas where you can really prove it, if you wish:
1. The Constitution
2. The Ten Commandments
If you can give me the proof (list them, state them, give me chapter and verse references) and show me that I am clearly wrong, then I am willing to talk about that with you. If you cannot…then we have nothing further to discuss. I’m not going to keep running in circles, restated what I have clearly laid out already. I will leave the choice up to you.
Thank you for having this conversation and with me and keeping it civil and respectful.
LikeLike
Espragg, you keep saying you have demonstrated your point. You have not. You have demonstrated that there were Christians in this country, many of whom were founding fathers, and many of them professed belief that somehow their values were important to founding the country.
This you have clearly established. You have hit the nail on the head with that specific proposition.
Where you have not yet once been able to demonstrate is that the US WAS actually founded on Christian belief, or the bible.
You have now written the equivalent of another entire blog post once again demonstrating that early Christian founding fathers held a belief that there was some sort of Christian foundation to the forming of the US Constitution. And once again, I have no issue with that. This is where we keep going in circles. I’m not debating there were Christians. There were Christian founding fathers. FULL STOP
What you are proposing, though is that the US ACTUALLY was founded on Christian beliefs or the Bible. And this CLEARLY is not the case. And I’ll just use exactly the thing you told me to use, again:
1) The Constitution
2) The Ten Commandments
All I have to do is see if the Constitution is modeled after the 10 Commandments. If the Constitution resembles the Commandments, then you have at least a working hypothesis. If the Constitution does not resemble the 10, then you have a failed hypothesis.
Got it? If they are similar, you may have a point. If they are almost completely different, then one IS NOT modeled after the other. So one more time:
The 10 commandments:
1) I am the lord your god- Not only isthis not the law, it is actually illegal under the 1st Amendment, and article III of the Constitution (no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.)
2) No other gods besides me: again, illegal in the US under the 1st Amendment, and article III of the Constitution
3) No graven images: Third time, illegal under the 1st Amendment, and article III of the Constitution
4) Do not use his name in vain: Fourth time, illegal under the 1st Amendment, and article III of the Constitution
5) Keep the sabbath: Not mentioned at all in the Constitution, not mandated by the federal government.
6) Honor your father and mother: Never mentioned in the Constitution. Not even law to this day. To the contrary, laws protecting children from abusive parents goes against this commandment in such cases.
7) Don’t murder: Not in the Constitution, and not even a federal law. Every state enacts laws about murder and manslaughter, not the federal government. Laws against murder pre-date the writing of Exodus, such as the Code of Hammurabi law 153, and Egyptian law (papyrus Salt 124)
8) Don’t commit adultery: Not in the Constitution. Not federal law. Not state law. Some states may allow adultery as a reason to get divorced, which goes against other parts of the bible.
9) Don’t steal. Not in the constitution or a federal law, but it is state law. Also a law that pre-dates the events of Exodus, such as Hammurabi codes 6-13.
10) Don’t bear false witness: Not in the Constitution, and this is perfectly legal everywhere in the US with two exceptions- court, and slander/libel.
11) Don’t covet the neighbors house- Not in the Constitution, not illegal at all, and in fact a fairly American thing to do. George Washington even said “A people… who are possessed of the spirit of commerce, who see and who will pursue their advantages may achieve almost anything.”
12) Don’t covet the neighbors wife: Not in the Constitution, not illegal. This is nothing but a thought crime. No matter how you feel morally about this one, you can want the next door woman all you want with absolutely nothing illegal about it. We explicitly make thought crimes illegal in this country.
13) Don’t covet the neighbor’s slaves, animals, or property. Again, thought crimes not in the Constitution, and not illegal.
14) Set up these stones on Mount Gerizim: Clearly has nothing at all to do with any country in North America.
So, to re-cap. You propose the Constitution is based on the bible, specifically the 10 commandments. I just laid out every commandment that is considered one of the 10 commandments in the various denominations. If they are a close match, you have a case. If they are not a close match, you do not have a case. And clearly, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the US Constitution is not based on the 10 commandments.
I have literally gone down the list of commandments and compared them with the US constitution, and where required gave you specific references.
Further, the 10 commandments say nothing at all about the organization of a government. That isn’t the purpose of the 10 commandments at all. It’s a list of “do” and “do not”.
So, I have definitively demonstrated that the US Constitution was not inspired by the 10 Commandments.
Is there ANY other part of the bible you think inspired the Constitution?
LikeLike
I have said everything I needed to say, and proved everything that I needed to…over and over again, regardless of whether or not you think I did to your satisfaction. But that is not my job, nor my intention with this website. My job is to state the facts (which I did), and be able to back up my claims with logic, history, quotes kept in context, and scripture (all of which I did several times over). If you do not want to face the facts I give, that is up to you, but it does not mean I did not prove my point.
The only points I did not prove were the claims that I did NOT make, but that you kept insisting I prove.
Thank you for this conversation, and for keeping it civil and respectful…but I am not going to keep up this conversation and waste my words, and keep repeating myself, if you don’t want to listen. I wish you well.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I have to admit, I have no idea what you are trying to “prove” anymore. I thought you were trying to prove the US was founded upon the principles found in the bible. I guess not.
Thank you as well, have a great week!
TSA
LikeLike